San Diego, CA (special) -- A joint tour cosponsored by the Anti Defamation League and the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Diego last week revealed how far apart the two religious communities are concerning some global matters and how strongly they want to cooperate with each other at the local level.

Father Remi Hoeckman, secretary of the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, and Rabbi Leon Klenicki, director of national ADL's interfaith affairs department, spent two days in San Diego in a running dialogue over such questions as what does the Year 2000 mean to members of both religions, what should be done about Jerusalem and what needs to be done to further Jewish-Catholic cooperation. The two religious leaders met with San Diego area rabbis and priests on Sunday, Oct. 17, and spent the following day meeting with representatives of the media,students at the University of San Diego,and with more priests and rabbis.HERITAGE and the Southern Cross, a Roman Catholic newspaper,

DIALOGUERS--Rabbi Leon Klenicki, director of  the interfaith affairs department of the Anti- Defamation League, makes a point as Fr. Remi  E. Hoeckman, secretary of the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, listens.

conferenced with the two men on Monday, Oct. 18.

While Christians will celebrate the Year 2000 as the end of the second millennium since the birth of Jesus, for them the milestone anniversary is also "an invitation to ask ourselves what we have done with this gift of God to humankind," said Hoeckman, a native of Belgium. 

"There are times that allow us to indeed stand back and see where we went off the track, and there we have got something very fundamental from the Jewish tradition: the concept of the Jubilee," the official from Vatican City said. "This is part of the way we want to be grateful to God."

In the Bible, the Jubilee or 50th year is designated for setting slaves free. Speaking metaphorically, Hoeckman urged: "Those whom we have enslaved, let us set them free again. When we have enslaved the very soil, let the soil recuperate again."

Ann Aubrey Hanson, a Southern Cross staff writer, asked if Hoeckman was referring to such actions as "cancellation of debts" by people throughout the world.

"Yes," he replied, "for us this is an occasion to go into this and to ask exactly for that. It is not just a religious kind of thing."

Rabbi Klenicki said some people in developing nations are suggesting that their countries' international debts be wiped clean. However, he said, debts need to be differentiated. Sometimes, said the native of Argentina, the debts are caused "by governments with no sense of economy, by juntas of generals."

"Perhaps," the rabbi suggested, "what we should emphasize is to teach people not to get into those loans. ... I think religion can play a very important role in that respect."

He noted that for the last three years in preparation for the millennium, Roman Catholics bishops have participated in what they call a "reckoning of the soul." He said this was a healthy process in Argentina where the bishops "spoke about what happened under the generals and the so-called silence of many bishops when so many people were killed."

It is also important, the rabbi suggested, that "there be a reckoning of what happened in the last 1,000 years of joint history (with the Jews), especially in the last century, and very specially what happened in Europe with the Holocaust." 

He agreed with Hoeckman that the arrival of the Year 2000 should be a time for "Christians and Jews to take a moment for what we call in Hebrew hesbon ha nefesh -- a reckoning of the soul. What went wrong with our relationship through the 2000 years; what is projected for the future?"

Hoeckman took pains to assure the Jewish community that the celebration of the birth of Jesus should not be seen as "triumphalistic" -- that is, it should not be construed in any way that Christianity has triumphed over the Judaism from which it grew.

"It is a unique opportunity to be forgiven where forgiveness is needed, to purify our sense of celebration where maybe a celebration might contain the danger of triumphalism, and it is a momentum which will be very productive and very positive for the Christian community and hopefully ...also ... for those who are partners in so many ways."

He explained the three-year lead in period to the millennium was established because "in our understanding of God, we have the trinitarian understanding, so it was a year that was dedicated to the son, the holy spirit and to the father."

Asked about the Holy See's position on Jerusalem, Hoeckman said it was "first of all the status had to be worked out by the two parties directly involved: the State of Israel and the Palestinians. "However, he said, as part of the agreement "some form of International involvement of the international community will be required."

Klenicki said in other meetings between the ADL and high ranking officials of the Roman Catholic Church, assurances were given that the Holy See is not asking for the internationalization of Jerusalem. However, what exact form "international involvement" should take has never been spelled out.

In reply, Hoeckman said, "I could think of an international consultation. Would this happen on the level of the United Nations organization, I don't know. But nevertheless there should be this kind of guarantee in order to safeguard the universal significance" of Jerusalem.

Later in the conversation, Hoeckman said: "For us, East Jerusalem is occupied by force, so here we have two peoples involved and we want them to work out what the situation will be. As far as we are concerned, Jerusalem could be the capital of both: we are not entering that matter."

Klenicki wondered why the Roman Catholic Church worries about continued Israeli administration of Jerusalem, but during the period of 1948 to 1967, when the eastern portion of the city was in Jordanian hands, he could not recall "any criticism by the Holy See about the occupation of Jordan of those areas in all those years. 

"I don't remember any document, any criticism," Klenicki added. "Perhaps it might be, and I overlooked it, but it is important to point out that under the Jordanian administration, we hadn't heard anything."

The rabbi added that the Roman Catholic Bishop in Jerusalem, Bishop Michel Saba, "is not necessarily our friend and he makes it very very openly all over the world to any meeting he goes."

When questions turned to the projected visit of the Pope to Israel next March, Klenicki said: "I have two wishes for that visit: one that the Pope will help the peace process because he is a man of peace, and also that he will visit Yad Vashem in Jerusalem." 

A visit to Israel's Holocaust memorial and study center "would give a message to the whole of humanity as he did before when he visited Auschwitz and he denounced anti-Semitism," Klenicki said.

Hoeckman said that the itinerary for the visit still is being worked on, but suggested that overall the visit will serve three purposes. It will be a "pilgrimage to those places that are very significant in Christian tradition. ... Of course like every visit of the Pope, it has a pastoral concern of encouraging the Catholic communities and the Christian communities. A third dimension of this is ...that such a pilgrimage, such a presence, will also have a positive repercussion on every man and woman of good will whatever his or her religious background."

Msgr. Dennis Mikulanis, vicar for interreligious and ecumenical affairs for the Catholic Diocese of San Diego, later told HERITAGE that "the Pope wants to visit not just Israel, but his visit would take in Iraq, Syria and then Israel, because he is following the ancient biblical path.

"Ur of the Chaldees of Abraham, site of the first worship of God, is in Iraq now, and of course the western governments are trying to tell another sovereign head of state who also is head of a major religion that he shouldn't go there," Mikulanis noted. "Well, I don't think he is going to listen to that -- if his pilgrimage to these holy sites does indeed come off."

While the Pope certainly is planning to go, frail health could make it impossible, Mikulanis said.

While Saddam Hussein may attempt to capitalize on the Pope's visit to gain credibility in the world's eyes, Mikulanis said, "the Holy See has done this enough -- they are not going to be hoodwinked into anything. That would be a visit to the Chaldean Catholic community that is there -- who are oppressed despite the fact that the Foreign Minister Tawfik Azzis is a Chaldean Catholic."

Asked about the other meetings at which Klenicki and Hoeckman spoke, Casuto said the dialogue on Sunday was attended by eight Conservative and Reform rabbis. The Conservatives were Arnold Kopikis of Ner Tamid Synagogue, David Kunin of Ohr Shalom Synagogue, Mel Libman of Temple Judea and Arthur Zuckerman of Congregation Beth Am. The Reform rabbis included Jonathan Stein and Sheryl Nosan of Congregation Beth Israel, Lisa Goldstein of Hillel of San Diego and Ted Riter of Temple Solel. 

He said Libman returned to a Monday luncheon in the North County which also was attended by Rabbi Deborah Prinz of Temple Adat Shalom, and two non-pulpit rabbis, Ben Lenow and Laurie Coskey. At another event, the two visiting clergy met with with Bishop Robert Brom of the Catholic Diocese and with Alice Hayes, president of the University of San Diego, which is a Catholic institution.

Overall, said Casuto, "I think the meetings indicated that there is a great distance yet to travel between both communities before the ghosts of the past can be exorcised.

"While both individuals (Hoeckman and Klenicki) acknowledge the immense sea change that has occurred in Catholic-Jewish relations since Vatican II, there are still issues that demand understanding and explanation," the ADL regional director added. 

"I think it is a measure of the maturity of the relationship that both Catholic and Jewish representatives felt so free to articulate those areas of disagreement. It speaks to the honesty of the relationship."

Casuto said that "one of the things that came out of this pretty clearly was that both priests and rabbis want this kind of programming to continue."

Concurring, Mikulanis said: "I would like to initiate a more formal priest rabbi dialogue. They have done similar things in other parts of the country. We tried it once before in San Diego but it didn't go very far. Let us try it again and see what we can generate now."

He suggested that the meetings not be limited to global issues. "Maybe just understanding what each of our congregations does" would be one way to start, the monsignor said. "Social justice issues, peace and justice issues: maybe there are ways that we can plug in and work with one another there. Because when we start working together on these things, we start to understand one another better, we start to know one another better."

Congregation Beth Israel members already volunteer every Sunday to feed the homeless at St. Vincent de Paul, a Catholic institution. Temple Emanu El for years has been active in the Interfaith Shelter Program. And North County synagogues have been active in the North County Interfaith Alliance, which operates a variety of social programs.

Mikulanis said Hoeckman expressed the hope that there could be dialogue on such issues as the family because "both religions are very family oriented"; the ecology which "is a gift from God that we have to worry about"; and peace and justice around the world. Also, Hoechman suggested "that we cannot shy away from the abortion issue either," Mikulanis said.